Our Dinner With Michael (Moore)
Our Dinner With Michael (Moore)
You never know how it’s going to go with celebrities.
During the production of What A Way To Go we learned to temper our high expectations of our literary, journalistic, and scientific heroes. Most of the authors and experts we interviewed were warm, genuine, and human. But others were, to be honest, somewhat less than that.
We were happy when Deb Lake, executive director of the State Theater in Traverse City Michigan, emailed me an invitation to come and screen What A Way To Go. The invitation included the opportunity to meet Michael Moore. The theater is home to Michael Moore’s Traverse City Film Festival. It’s a volunteer-run, non-profit, and beautifully refurbished old downtown theater. Michael Moore helped, with funding and leadership, to bring it back to life. And their IndyFlix film series sponsored the screening of What A Way To Go. As plans evolved, the invitation included having dinner before the screening with Michael Moore and others from the committee that organizes the monthly independent film series.
And so Our Dinner With Michael came into being.
It takes a lot for a human being to put himself on the line in the ways that Michael Moore has. He’s had incredible guts over the years. He’s shown up and told the truth to the corporate and political powers-that-be in ways that make my stomach watery. And we learned that, at times, it’s been hard and scary for him and his family. We would have understood if he’d developed a sizable and arrogant ego to meet the task of standing up to those powers in the ways that he has in every one of his films. We’d not have been surprised or offended to get a cursory “Hi,HowAreYa,I’mAnImportantGuy,SeeYaLater.” It would not have bothered us nor would we have taken it personally if that had been the extent of our interaction with him.
What a pleasure it was, then, to be greeted instead with tremendous, genuine warmth and respect. His appreciation was palpable as he reached out his hand and began to joke with us about his surprise when he viewed our movie for the first time.
Our Dinner With Michael proved to be more gratifying, and unexpectedly healing, than we could have guessed.
You have to understand what it has been like for us to be essentially unfunded, virgin, documentary filmmakers who embarked on making a movie that takes on the biggest questions facing human beings; a movie that takes apart the very core assumptions of the American lifestyle; a movie that forecasts the immanent dissolution of all that Americans have come to expect as their birthright: endless economic growth, material comfort, and growing prosperity, from now on and until forever.
It was a big story to approach for a first effort. But there wasn’t time, or any reason we could see, to do anything less ambitious.
So we did it. And in doing so we stepped into the unexpected role of prophet of unhappy times, tumultuous times, and perhaps, tragically, even the end of times. It was not what we had really planned to do by making a movie, to step into such a role. But we found out, after the fact, that it comes with the territory.
It’s been hard, scary, and alienating to be in this role. It’s also been deeply fulfilling and gratifying. We’ve received tremendous feedback from grateful viewers of our movie who had lost hope of finding others who were able to look so soberly and squarely at the crisis of which the human species, and indeed the whole life of the planet, is in the midst. That’s been the upside.
The downside is that people have also responded with criticism and anger. They’ve questioned our integrity. They’ve called us names. They’ve suggested we’re only in it for the money. (What a joke that is.) Comments have been such that Tim decided to have his email screened, to eliminate from his “director” in-box the nasty and ignorant feedback that serves only to sock him in the gut, over and over again. We learned to request that people resist playing film critics when we conduct post-screening dialogues. Out of ignorance and fear people can be unbelievably thoughtless and hurtful.
In addition to harsh comments we’ve gotten from strangers, we were not popular at home either. We’ve now left the local community where we lived prior to and while making the movie. We found that the old adage, “A prophet is never known in his own country” holds far more wisdom than we could have known. And not only is a prophet not known, but the prophet, like the messenger, can and will be shot if the neighbors don’t happen to like the content of the prophesy. Spoken and unspoken, the reaction and response we got from all but a very few of our local progressive community was pretty consistent: “You guys are way too scary. We don’t want any more to do with you if you won’t lighten up and join us in our fantasy of easy sustainability. You need to read some light fiction and rejoin the rest of the sleeping human race.” We were very sad that so few people were able to stand by us and engage in this critical conversation, especially people we’d known for a decade or more.
I’m not whining. We’ve come to terms with this. We understand that the message of our movie is a very bitter herb to ingest, a tremendously hard bullet to bite, an apparently insurmountable emotional challenge to the vast majority of progressives who are doing their best to try and make a difference in the world. Over time, as the world situation unwinds further, we realize that the message we deliver in What A Way To Go will be more widely received. We’ve sensed a difference even in the past couple of months with the rise in gas prices and undeniable chaos in weather patterns. We’re just a few years, or weeks, ahead of our time. More and more people are going to want to understand what the hell has gone wrong with their American Dream and how come the nightmare isn’t ending. Then What A Way To Go, and our intentions in making it, will be appreciated by more people. Then it will serve the purposes we’ve had in mind: to empower people to engage in thorough and thoughtful dialogue about our collective diagnosis.
In the meantime we’ve licked our wounds and built a personal support network to weather the criticism and shunning that has come our way.
We had no idea that our trip to Traverse City would have any impact on this aspect of our lives. We wondered, even hoped a little, about doors that might open to distribution. We expected it would be nice, at least, to meet Michael Moore, a cinematic hero, a profound documentary maker. We were open to a good experience, but we didn’t expect the outcome of this train trip to address our experience of the last couple of years.
So it was a complete surprise when Our Dinner With Michael healed those wounds. Michael Moore stepped up to the spiritual plate as a true elder. And he blessed us.
As Sally Neal, the gutsy activist who started the film series introduced us, Michael, with his unassuming boyish smile, extended his hand with unforgettable warmth and genuineness. We stood, the three of us, in the midst of a busy restaurant, in a cocoon of sweet camaraderie. We were in the presence of someone who knew what we’d been through without us speaking a word of it. We listened, somewhat spellbound, as Michael talked about his experience of seeing our movie. He laughed and joked with us about the warning card at the beginning of the movie, saying that What A Way To Go is a long and dense film. He said he’d had no idea what he was about to watch but when he saw the warning he realized that he was likely in for a ride. And indeed, he said, it was a ride. So much so that he did something he didn’t remember having done in the last decade or more. As soon as the movie was over, he told us, he reached up and hit the play button again and watched it through a second time. “Four hours,” he said, “I watched your movie.” He was riveted.
Hearing this from a hero was a balm for two weary and road-wounded souls. It’s been a very long four years. It’s been hard and lonely. But Michael Moore watched our movie and he liked it. He liked it enough to watch it immediately a second time. He liked it enough to agree with the IndyFlix committee that they should bring us to Traverse City when they screened the movie. I guess what he’s saying is that it’s good.
It’s good. It’s good not in spite of the fact that it tells the truth, but because it tells the truth. It’s good not in spite of the fact that it’s long and dense, but because it is long and dense. And when he introduced us and the movie at the State Theater later on, Michael Moore went further. After he told the story of hitting the play button again after his first viewing, he said something that really hit the spot for me. He said it is not often to find people like us who respect their audience enough to tell them the whole truth. With that, he nailed it for me. Because that is true, truer than anyone else had put into words previously. We do respect our audience that much. We do believe our audience wants the whole truth. How amazing for us to have him really understand that, and to put words to it.
Michael Moore may not know what a gift he gave us, and how it healed us. But that’s how true elders are. They act without pretense or expectation. They shine on their people simply because it is the thing to do. Elders in a tribe, or in a community, or in a social movement, are people who have, by facing their own significant challenges and personal losses, accumulated considerable personal power. And true elders use that personal power to empower others, often to heal them, and then to send them off, renewed, into new challenges. .
And that’s what Michael Moore did. That’s what Our Dinner With Michael accomplished. He saw us. He acknowledged deeply our efforts and intentions. And by doing so, he blessed us.
Thank you, Michael Moore, for being even better than we expected you to be. With this healing, and your blessing, we are ready to get to work again.
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June 17th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Sorry to hear so many people are in denial, that they take it out on you.
Strangely enough, your film has crystallized a lot of randomized thoughts floating around in my head.
We *are* in for a rough ride.
Keep doing what you do.
June 17th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
I was standing in the lounge thinking “I must phone Christine about tomorrow.” and started off to my study to do just that. As I was walking the phone I wanted to use started ringing so I got there, sat in my chair, picked it up and said “Hi Christine!” “How did you know! ? ! ? ! ?”
“Simple my dear Christine [y’know like in Watson] - I am psychic.”
I had no idea how tough this has been on you both. Tim mentioned the move on the forum, but with a certain British understatement. I have been thinking of you both nonetheless, or rather allthemore. I am soooooo relieved that you moved together - Tim only said he was moving and that his son was staying and that has been hanging out there in my mind since.
I have missed the occasional blog too and the forum has gone rather quiet. Bottom line - I missed you both. It is really great to hear from you and even greater that Michael could ground you so simply, eloquently and solidly. [ground as in ‘on solid footing’]
May your new nest be cosy and warm as the hearts that will dwell in it, may it be blended into the environs as to be elven, and may you become as the the mythical green people.
You have my respect, my love and well wishes.
Humbly
Bernhard
June 17th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Hi Sally,
How about asking your so-called progressive friends back in NC the question Richard Heinberg posed the other week…”How do you like collapse so far?”
The entire debate about the limits to growth was settled back in the mid-1970s. I should know, I was there at the 1975 Limits to Growth Conference at the Woodlands in Houston, Texas.
For over 30 years we have understood that economic growth would end sometime in the 21st century. The
June 17th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
tim and sally…….it was nice to meet you and share dinner and conversation…
hope you enjoyed your stay other than meeting michael…….
best of luck on your move, and in your new environs……..
hope you find it more hospitable………
sally
June 17th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
Wow. I guess I’m not surprised that people can be so hurtful, rejecting, thoughtless, and in denial, but I feel so hurt and angry on your behalf it gives me a jolt. I mean, really hurt, and really angry! Here it is so obvious that you have poured your hearts into this film, the most important film I and many others have ever seen, and you are treated so appallingly?!
But Michael Moore… I loved him before and I think I love him even more now. It’s so good to hear this story of affirmation and realness.
Also, the reaction from your community, about you being scary and needing to lighten up and join the fantasy of easy sustainability? Oh man, does that hit close to home.
I wish you well as you settle in a new place.
June 18th, 2008 at 1:27 am
Sally wrote:
> “A prophet is never known in his own country” holds far more wisdom than we could have known.
“First they ignore you; Then they ridicule you; Then they attack you; Then you win.” -Gandhi
“There are three steps in the revelation of any truth: in the first, it is ridiculed; in the second, resisted; in the third, it is considered self-evident.” -Arthur Schopenhauer
“And it ought to be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, then to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things. Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions, and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well under the new.” -Nicolo Machiavelli, The Prince
“For a wide door of opportunity for effectual service has opened to me and there are many adversaries.” -1 Corinthians 16:9
June 18th, 2008 at 2:19 am
Just dropping by to say congrats on the move to Vermont. Sorry we didn’t have more time for socializing since last summer’s debut. But I wish you well in your new locale (and I’m a little envious as well). Cheers!
June 18th, 2008 at 8:04 am
Hi Sally…again…I think I fat-fingered the “Submit Comment” before I was finished.
The popular awakening to the world problematique is being introduced at the gas pumps and in supermarkets throughout the country.
“What a Way to Go” had the temerity to probe the cultural and psychological underpinnings of our dreams of empire just as we were rudely awakened from our culturally shared dreams of unstoppable technological progress, unlimited economic growth and more, more, more.
Good for you and Tim to hook-up with Michael Moore. I find in re-assuring that he appreciated your efforts so much that he invited “What a Way to Go” to be included in his film festival.
Glad to know you have landed safely in the People’s Republic of Vermont.
June 18th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
I’m happy that you are having some rejuvenating experiences and think it’s good for you to take care of yourselves as we need folks like you. If it gets hard to do for yourselves, do it for us ’cause we need you.
Sorry to hear about the fear-anger reactions you get (even from “friends”) I hope that in the future even iif you are disagreed with, people can respect your work and use it as an excellent opportunity to have their thoughts provoked.
I have had the honor and delight of meeting MM twice. The first time was as I was walking the picket line during the Eastern Airlines Strike.Being a Blue Collar guy who happens to be smart and progressive (and there are many of us) two important things came across to me,during my brief times with MM which I would like to pass along. First, that we not fritter away alot of our precious time and energy “preaching to the choir.” Second, that it is important for us be sensitive to where people are at and take the time to present our message in a way that gives the best chance for them to hear it.
Thank you for your hard work,
Joe W.
June 18th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Tim and Sally, I really feel now like I’ve been “left behind”. At least while you guys were in the southeast and I could read your monthly blogs, I felt connected with the big picture. As you know, in Clemson there are no kindred souls and I’m very much in a vacuum. I bought “What A Way to Go” last year and have loaned it to select people who, I’m hoping, will begin to dialog with others about where humanity is headed. Folks just prefer their fantasy world.
I envy you your move to Vermont and wish you the very best as you continue your quest to enlighten and empower.
June 19th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
Glad to see you guys are still around…I was kind of worried.
Glad also to see that the movie is still peaking interest…it’s a great piece of work and deserves broad recognition. Sadly, this world is hardly a meritocracy…otherwise we probably would not have screwed it up to the extent that we have.
June 25th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Sally- would you be willing to chronicle these early days in your relocation on your blog? Adjusting to new environs, leaving family and old friends behind, renewed efforts and difficulties encountered in post-Peak Oil preparations, etc. Best wishes in the coming days.
June 26th, 2008 at 10:23 am
Hi Bob,
I only have time to respond briefly. Leaving the home and community where I had lived for 28 years was wrenching. I grieved mightily during the weeks we spent sorting and packing. I realized it was grief about much more than just the current life. It was about the ending of life as a mom of children, about the ending of the dream that I had beaten the system and would live out my days witnessing my children and grandchildren grow up in an essentially intact world. It was grief of course about losing people I’d known most of my adult life but who were currently unable to face the seriousness of the planetary situation we are confronted with. Tim and I came to a place about a year ago that we realized that we just couldn’t “socialize” anymore. Things were too pressing, too real, too precious, to engage in small talk or to pretend that talk about buying more stuff or taking vacations to exotic places or what one’s fantastical plans for the future were. We just can’t pretend anymore.
As far as adjusting to new environs we will see how that goes. We are far less zealous, paradoxically, than we have been, in terms of trying to convince anyone. Now we are attempting to merely show up, appreciate what people have to offer, speak clearly and genuinely, and give and seek kindness and patience. So far it is working really well. We feel seen, appreciated and welcomed.
More to come about a new project when that is in place. I’ll say please sign up on the What A Way To Go email list to be sure you hear more about that when it is in place!
One more thing. In “A Hopi Elder Speaks” it is said that the river is running really fast right now. That is our experience. And if you get in the middle of the river and not cling to the shore it is very exhilarating. It’s beautiful to look around and see who is there with you and celebrate!
Thanks for asking…
June 27th, 2008 at 10:37 am
Sally, many thanks for your gift of sharing these insights in such an open and profoundly beautiful way.
July 8th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
I hope you are right about peoples attitudes changing, because I have gotten so many negative reactions that I stopped recommending the film - I just didnt need the aggravation.
A while ago, I emailed James Howard Kunstler and asked him if he had seen it and if he would review it and he told me he had a copy but hadnt watched it.
I asked the same thing of David Korten, but got no reply.
2012 author Pinchbeck, as far as I can surmise, doesnt want to have anything to do with it.
I think the main thing that stops people dead in their tracks in terms of fully facing The Situation we are in here on earth is the “die-back” issue, the idea that we have gone past the point of no return in terms of preventing a rather horrific collapse that is going to claim a lot of lives.
Most people want to believe that we are going to be able to make a rather easy Green Transition, or that December 2012 is going to automatically usher in a happy New Age. If you move outside of that frame, people dont seem to want to hear it. Yet.
Regards, Joseph
July 18th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Dear Sally
As always, I enjoyed your article and was glad that you got the respect and recognition from Michael Moore that you deserve.
The degree of denial demonstrates the depths of depravity that the human race will sink to in the throws of the coming devastation - let’s not be kidding ourselves here. We need to look destiny full in the face.
I do hope that your Gathering Inn won’t be selling alcohol - can’t see that as a solution either.
Good luck and warmest regards, Robin
July 20th, 2008 at 1:16 am
What do they say in some country locales? You can’t get there from here. For many the truth of our situation is too horrible to conceive and so it is denied. For others the requisite mental background does not (yet) exist for them to “get it”. The disneyplex consensus trance bubble, the blue pill matrix of lies that makes up the American Dream (and civilization itself) will persist a little longer it seems.
Nevertheless, hats off to Tim and Sally. The film will sooner rather than later become nicely congruent with the facts on the ground. And hopefully people will be able to use the film to avoid attributing all our difficulties to the wrong cause/source.
July 24th, 2008 at 7:57 am
I can sympathise with you being ostracised by your community — it’s going to happen to me, but you just have to stay in there, in touch and feeding the message all the time you have the liberty to do so.
When I finished A Matter Of Scale, I had the feeling it would get me into trouble, especially because I had no qualms about who might read it — making it free online is liberating because it can take on its own life, but the message remains because it is so simple and can be expressed in so many ways without losing the meaning — I just thought this variation up: Industrial Civilization is the cause of the problem; it’s removal is the solution.
I really wish you guys could put WAWTG online; you would be amazed at the reaction, and surprised at how good it is — the casual viewer won’t buy a DVD, but the casual viewer would spare you an hour or two, and come out the other end a changed person.
Keep at it.
Keith x
July 28th, 2008 at 4:24 am
Sally and Tim,
I’m sad that you were so unappreciated here in CC. Maybe it was harder here because you two grew and changed faster than the rest of us. I suspect that a lot of people see the doc not as liberating information but as an accusation. I hope Vermont is more hospitable - there you can start right out as the visionary documentary makers from the mysterious South (Where exactly _is_ North Carolina, anyway?). Chatham County has been feeling a little empty since you left. I wish I’d made more time for coffee at the general store, and they way one or both of you would just happen to show up sometimes…
As Joseph noted above, I didn’t get the response I expected when I offered copies of WAWTG to friends and family. I’m not sure that anyone I gave a copy to even watched the whole doc once, let alone twice. What I’ve gone through has been nothing compared to what you had endure, I’m sure. But even so, there have been times when I wondered if maybe it was just my depression talking (but I don’t feel depressed, just pessimistic - there’s a difference), or maybe that I _am_ kinda off my rocker somehow. How much harder it must have been for you two to take all those direct hits. I’m glad MM was able to deliver the blessings you deserve.
It turns out that enlightenment ain’t all that f___in’ light - it’s heavy duty. I remember reading about Meher Baba going into his little retreat house to meditate and to “work” on behalf of all beings, and that he suffered a lot. At the time I wondered, “OK, but what’s he _doing_ that’s so hard?” I suspect he was seeing what we now glimpse, that humanity is a tragic experiment, even without Global Climate Change. Baba spent a lot of time washing his followers’ feet. And he spent a lot of time listening to their questions and pleas for help - perhaps as a parent would listen to their beloved but naive child.
Is civilization a naive child or is it an adult with a serious illness? Maybe it’s like a naive adult with an incurable illness. What is the doctor’s responsibility if the patient doesn’t want to know their diagnosis? Does the responsibility change if the patient has an incurable disease? What is the doctor’s responsibility if the patient, by being in denial, is spreading the incurable disease? What if the patient is the disease? Is the doctor allowed to say that?
Your work has continued to “work on” Maggie and me. I think about the implications of the doc every day. Through that lens everything looks different - I’ve come to the conclusion that almost everything we humans are doing or trying to do is the reverse of what we should be doing - pumping up the economy, trying to bring down the price of oil/gas, identifying countries as “underdeveloped” - as though that’s a bad thing (we should be labeling the USA as overdeveloped!), developing new antibiotics (aptly named, aren’t they?), trying to cure every disease and “save lives” at any cost - it’s all one big exercise in the denial of death.
I have only one child, and only one grandchild - who was born 18 months ago. My grandson’s birth shouldn’t have changed my feelings about approaching the train wreck, but it did. He’s a sweet, happy child. Innocent, blameless - and he’s going to have to suffer for our “sins.” And there’s probably not much I can do about it that will make any difference. I can wear black so I remember that grief is below my anger, frustration or disappointment. I can bear witness to the suffering of innocents. I can speak the truth about the causes of suffering when it might be welcome. I can remember that those who choose denial may be doing the best they can (”resistance implies pain”). I can remember that it’s not my movie. I can remember that my job is to show up, listen to the other actors and say my lines as they come to me in the moment. Or remain silent, which is harder.
I miss you two. But I missed you when you lived 15 miles away, too.
“When you are away
I can’t sleep
When you are here
I stay up all night
Thank God for these two insomnias
And the difference between them.”
Rumi
translated by Coleman Barks
remembered imperfectly by PT
July 28th, 2008 at 8:22 am
Dear Paul,
It is this kind of support, that was always there from you and Maggie, that has helped and sustained us. You have always “seen” us and responded, as you have here, with clarity, vulnerability, and poetry! I miss you too. Perhaps you will come visit us (via train) sometime and we will share some of the remaining beauty of the earth together.
The community here has been, so far, warm and welcoming. There’s not much of a need on our part to be other than good neighbors and I think that helps as well. All need to be seen or validated has dropped away. I no longer feel “crazy,” or at least rarely. We are opening a new chapter of our work and our lives. And we have some sweet souls who have joined us. As scary as the larger picture is, the local one is pretty sweet. Of course that is how it needs to be, planetwide. We feel blessed.
And blessed by our tribe members, far and wide, like you. Thanks.
September 14th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Hello Sally,
You came to our community, Ladner BC for a screening. I have not checked your blog for quite a while I am sorry to say. But now I must send you warm thoughts of love and support for your new life in Vermont. What a rollercoaster ride this is going to be!
Thank you for your vision and strength.
Mary